M. C. A. Hogarth ([info]haikujaguar) wrote,
@ 2008-04-11 07:50:00
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Current mood:sleepy
Entry tags:ai-naidar, meta-conversations, philosophy

After
"Strange..."

"What's that?"

I am leaning forward over my desk, tangled hair over one shoulder and all my brushes in front of me. "Well, they've seen you thrown people around. Tie them up and expose them in public. Threaten to rape them—with the implication that you'd follow through if necessary—you've shown you're good with a whip for a reason we'll see in a while. You've sedated people, blinded and gagged them, had them thrown into rooms for solitary confinement, cut them... and throughout all that, people responded uneasily, wondering what keeps you from abusing your power. Now that I've revealed it, some of them think you've been tortured and the sympathy shifts."

Shame laughs.

"What?" I say, looking over my shoulder.

"It's very aunerai, forgive me," he says. "Perhaps you should have used a different metaphor."

"Like what?"

"Tell them it's like a chef having to sample his entire menu before serving it."

I stare at him. "You think this is funny."

"It was a transcendent experience," Shame says quietly. "And I was in good hands. What should I fear from what people think they know?"

"Some people would argue torture can't be transcendent."

"Then you should not explain at all the Ai-Naidari definition of torture," Shame says. "Besides, even humans know better. The book you just read, yes? "In some rare cases, this shift in consciousness [toward spiritual enlightenment] happens dramatically and radically, once and for all. When it does, it usually comes about through total surrender in the midst of intense suffering." "

I eye him. "You're reading Oprah Book Club picks."

"No, you are," he says, laughing. "I'm just reading over your shoulder."

"It really doesn't bother you?" I ask.

"No," he says. "And it shouldn't bother you."

"Right," I say, and drag myself off to start the day.


Stardancer Home.



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[info]dedoc
2008-04-11 12:16 pm UTC (link)
Of course it's aunerai. We are.

(Or you are, colleague of mine.) (Or, of course, we both are, each to the other. *grin*)

I suspect the problem people are having here is that the English word "torture" combines things that, I believe, the Ai-Naidari word doesn't; suffering, an unwilling sufferer, malice on the part of the active agent, and hatred.

I am even willing to bet that there are different words for ... heavily physical Correction? , as opposed to "torture", in the original Ai-Naidari.

Traduttore, tradittore?

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[info]arielstarshadow
2008-04-11 01:18 pm UTC (link)
Heh - the fact that my thoughts haven't been at all along aunerai lines just confirms I'm completely on the wrong planet. ;)

Or that I'm just weird...

Or both.

I am, though, quite curious about the Ai-Naidar definition of torture - because Kor-Shame stated quite plainly in his trial that Civilization requires Correction, but never torture.

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[info]dedoc
2008-04-11 01:36 pm UTC (link)
OK. There's two...

*grin*

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[info]arielstarshadow
2008-04-11 01:07 pm UTC (link)
Hmmmm - which book did you just finish reading?

But back to the discussion - I can honestly say I've never had one single thought about Shame abusing his power or his position. Maybe that means I've at least grasped some of the core of what it means to be Ai-Naidar. So long as Shame is emotionally and spiritually healthy, I have no fear.

I also didn't see what happened to him as torture. It was an extremely powerful ritual that led to a rebirth (at least, that's how I see it). A ritual, and a rite of passage.

That might in part be due to my being a historian and remembering the rites of passage for peoples - like the Native Americans who pierced their braves with sharp, strong needles and hauled them up into the air. There are still Africans who practice scarification. Much of modern society (especially the West) has given up its rites of passage - to disastrous result, I think.

We humans have become adverse to any kind of pain - even the healing kind.

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[info]deepforestowl
2008-04-11 01:48 pm UTC (link)
He's right though. To be a good Master, one has to have experienced what the slave has gone through. It's one of the basic tenants of D/s if you want to do the job well.

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[info]mauser
2008-04-11 03:41 pm UTC (link)
Heh, how long before someone accuses Maggie of being secretly into BDSM..... Although I've had a devil of a time asking her to draw bondage. :-)

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[info]deepforestowl
2008-04-11 03:44 pm UTC (link)
I know! She'd probably draw bondage quite well methinks. heh.

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[info]mauser
2008-04-12 04:14 am UTC (link)
Well, if you keyword search on "Chandler" you'll find the one example....

As for the other pic tat comes up, I never did finish that story idea.

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[info]deepforestowl
2008-04-12 05:00 am UTC (link)
heh....cool.

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[info]ysabetwordsmith
2008-04-11 10:15 pm UTC (link)
People already have. It seems to happen a few times a year. She's not ... she just does thorough research, has some interesting friends, and her characters sometimes have verrrry different tastes.

Some of my characters are into things (not all of them sexual) that aren't my taste, too.

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[info]mauser
2008-04-12 04:20 am UTC (link)
That's the trait of a good author.

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Thank you...
[info]ysabetwordsmith
2008-04-12 04:26 am UTC (link)
... it mainly comes down to a dogged determination not to quit the room just because your character(s) just did something that made you want to rinse out your brain with boiling brandy. (You can thank [info]sythyry for that image.)

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Re: Thank you...
[info]mauser
2008-04-12 05:02 am UTC (link)
Of course, it's beginning to look like a lot of Maggie's FANS are sadomasochists.... :-)

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Re: Thank you...
[info]ysabetwordsmith
2008-04-12 05:30 am UTC (link)
So it would seem. This isn't the easiest topic to write effectively; such examples stand out and are quickly passed around.

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[info]archangelbeth
2008-04-11 01:56 pm UTC (link)
*snicker* Actually, less what keeps Kor from abusing his power, and more wondering what safeguards they have against, well, J. Random. Shame-priest We Don't Know from doing it. (Humans. We all fancy we're Unique Snowflakes Exceptions.)

Besides, he wasn't... tortured. He was bottoming. >_> In the ideals of BDSM, the bottom should have a transcendent experience, safe and secure, filled with endorphins.

He coulda safeworded just about any time, yes? Well, then.

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RE: Safeworded
[info]zilvar
2008-04-11 02:13 pm UTC (link)
I have my doubts. He could have surrendered his sense of self earlier, or given it up, but I did not get from the read that it was his place at all to say when he'd had too much.

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Re: Safeworded
[info]solcita
2008-04-11 02:34 pm UTC (link)
Perhaps it was, but had he given up "too early" (whenever that would have been, as judged by Thirukedi) he would not have been the proper one to be the servant of Shame...? At least, that's my impression.

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Re: Safeworded
[info]haikujaguar
2008-04-11 02:37 pm UTC (link)
The trial is more to uncover how much he's allowed to do. To find someone who is moved to become a servant of Shame unsuitable is fairly rare; most people find it too difficult to contemplate.

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Re: Safeworded
[info]solcita
2008-04-11 03:55 pm UTC (link)
Ah! I hadn't considered it that way, but that makes sense.

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Re: Safeworded
[info]archangelbeth
2008-04-11 02:52 pm UTC (link)
It seemed that he always had the option of saying, "Enough. I cannot do this." He wouldn't have been a priest of Shame -- or at least not one with everything available to him -- but he could have stopped. At least, that's the sense I got.

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Re: Safeworded
[info]ysabetwordsmith
2008-04-11 03:42 pm UTC (link)
That's what I took "you can give over" to mean, yes.

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Re: Safeworded
[info]arielstarshadow
2008-04-11 04:04 pm UTC (link)
Aye, me too.

I didn't think it would have meant he couldn't be a servant of Shame (though I do think there's probably a line that has to be crossed for success/failure - meaning that if you can't at least do A, B, and C, then yes, you cannot be a servant of Shame) - as [info]haikujaguar said, it would simply have been the point beyond which he could not go in terms of Correction.

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Re: Safeworded
[info]ysabetwordsmith
2008-04-11 04:21 pm UTC (link)
I'm also entirely confident that Thirukedi would recognize the threshold and stop before shattering someone, even if that person wasn't willing or able to tap out at the appropriate time.

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Re: Safeworded
[info]arielstarshadow
2008-04-11 04:28 pm UTC (link)
Absolutely.

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[info]captainq
2008-04-11 02:30 pm UTC (link)
He submitted himself to these punishments, for what? So that we could see the suffering in his eyes?

No, no. Torture is not something chosen.

The logic has already been said: He went through the suffering for the cause of knowing what it was like to suffer, so that no one he corrected could say he did not understand; that he had not "been there."

The love is this: He went through suffering so that others would not have to.

Such unconditional love is what is transcendent. This, as well as all true humility, does not make sense. But that is not aunerai, it is self-centeredness.

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[info]janni
2008-04-11 03:25 pm UTC (link)
I am aunerai, and so I do find it disturbing, and as a reader I think that's just fine. I don't read--or travel--only to see things I agree with; I also do it to see things that I'm not quite in sympathy with, and to think about why that's so, and in doing so to gain insights into my own views.

It'd be more troubling, I think, if everything I read led me to nod in comfortable agreement. :-)

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[info]artfulruin
2008-04-12 02:07 pm UTC (link)
Yes. This.

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[info]bluedressdevil
2008-04-11 04:50 pm UTC (link)
I think it makes perfect sense that he should have to undergo the corrections that he will dispense. My father was in law enforcement and he had to be pepper sprayed before he could be issued pepper spray because otherwise he might be tempted to use it in situations in which it did not merit.

I realize Shame endured even more harsh things but if he had not experienced it how would he know what merits those treatments. It would be abstract.

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[info]thedigitalkuri
2008-04-11 07:26 pm UTC (link)
*shrug* I have no idea why people think that Kor would go further. It would be my thought that he would err slightly more lenient or slightly more intense out of turn due to his great care of his people and his Civilization. *blink*

Torture had no factor, in the hooman sense.

It was just a rite. Just like tattoos and piercings are a rite. People ask 'why would you stick bars and metal in you? o.o'

Because I wanted to. And it hurt, and now I can understand and discuss that with people who have had more done, or with people who might want to.

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[info]shadesong
2008-04-11 07:41 pm UTC (link)
*blink* *blink* It seems perfectly logical to me.

...then again, I hit myself with every flogger/whip/cane I'll be using on someone else. Because you risk damaging someone if you don't know the effects.

I have experienced the logic firsthand.*nod*

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[info]miintikwa
2008-04-11 10:34 pm UTC (link)
I don't know. I always found his corrections sad-making, and always felt worry for him, that it was taking something from him to do it-- but then, that is part of his... ishas? right? (Is that the right word?)

So, it was something he had to do, wasn't it?

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[info]ladytwnks
2008-04-12 03:14 am UTC (link)
my viewing was not that he has ever tortured. my sense is that this is a deeply held calling, to help his people find themselves again from where they have fallen off the track.

and if he has not experienced the tools of shame, how can he know for sure where to stop? and what tool is the right one for the correction of each individual?

or, indeed, where there is no correction needed at all, as in the case of the exception?

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[info]artfulruin
2008-04-12 02:09 pm UTC (link)
I found what happened to Shame to be perfectly appropriate. But it still made me feel solemn and sad.

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[info]lotos_rose
2008-04-13 01:03 pm UTC (link)
The Aunerai medical profession is one where pain is often caused in the service of restoring health.

I don't have references for it, but every now and then I run across a note that, for instance, when psychiatric nurses are placed in restraints as part of updating their training they radically reduce using them on their patients. And when doctors in training are asked to experience painful tests (such as a bone marrow draw), they will be much slower to request them on a daily basis from their hospitalized patients, even though daily information would be nice to have to gauge a patient's progress.

It can be like "destroying the village in order to save it" during a war. Where does compassion come in? It's needed for true healing.

Thanks so much for this. I hope you can find a way to include your conversations with Kor and Ferren in the published Admonishments.

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[info]haikujaguar
2008-04-13 11:28 pm UTC (link)
This is a lovely analogy... thank you.

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[info]lotos_rose
2008-04-14 11:10 am UTC (link)
You are most welcome!

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