M. C. A. Hogarth ([info]haikujaguar) wrote,
@ 2008-04-06 13:18:00
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Current mood:O_O
Entry tags:philosophy, writing

Jaguar, Hater of Teh Wimmenz
Meanwhile, in other news... I periodically hunt around the web for mentions of my name to see how well my marketing's working. In the process, I ran into a discussion of the Jokka stories on a discussion board, wherein I was called a bad furry copy of Ursula Le Guin ("Just because it's a step above the quality of bad furry fanfic doesn't mean it has anything profound to say"), which was... bemusing enough.

But then they called me a misogynist. Which hit me somewhere between the eyes.

The response: "MCA Hogarth isn't a man, you idiot."

"Even better. Another woman full of self-hatred and with gender issues."

There was a brief discussion where evidence was raised to prove this point based on the Jokka stories, at which point the thread devolved into the usual forum trolling.

I admit I was stunned into silence by the discussion, and I spent a few days thinking about it. The temptation to say "That's not what I meant!" is strong, but also pointless... because I wasn't trying to say anything when I wrote those stories. Not on purpose. And you can't defend yourself against accusations based on your secret feelings.

For all I know, they're right. It makes me wonder.

Everyone brings their own thing to the art, and you don't have any control over what they think or take away from it. I suppose that means there will be people convinced I hate women (or myself)... along with all the other amazing things that have been assumed about me based on what I write (including at least two people who think I have Lisinthir's kinks, which is... uh... a pretty impressive assumption).

Still... being called a bad furry copy of Ursula Le Guin... there are worse things. I guess.


Stardancer Home.


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[info]kyburg
2008-04-06 05:35 pm UTC (link)
I get suspicious of any "label" put on a person - you really can't reduce a person to ten words or less, accurately...but it doesn't stop them from trying.

I smell envy, myself. Worse things? Shoot, I'd be flattered to be in such company.

(Reply to this)

[info]stokerbramwell
2008-04-06 05:37 pm UTC (link)
How silly! CLEARLY, the Anadi are an extension of your deep pain from being persecuted by the EVIL men for all of your life as a strong, independent womyn. The inevitable fall into mindlessness plainly references how any womyn who dares have an independent thought in our manocentric manocracy is cut down and destroyed, and their fate as cloistered breeders for their society is obviously a SCATHING criticism of how all men wish for nothing more than a harem of naked, barefoot, and pregnant women with no freedom, damn their evil penises of death!

I mean, really. How could they have missed something so clear? ;D

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)
(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2008-04-06 05:39 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]aureth, 2008-04-06 06:24 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2008-04-06 11:55 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]tuftears, 2008-04-07 07:01 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]stokerbramwell, 2008-04-07 03:46 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]archangelbeth, 2008-04-06 05:57 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]stokerbramwell, 2008-04-07 03:52 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ruggels, 2008-04-06 06:34 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]stokerbramwell, 2008-04-07 04:05 am UTC (Expand)

[info]brianblackberry
2008-04-06 05:38 pm UTC (link)
I have learned one thing about being and artist or a writer, or both, and this is coming from someone who basically just scribbles and makes short little comic stories, that some people especially on the Web will always dislike one's work. It is simply a matter of fact, but take comfort in this knowledge, the complainers, who are much more likely to say anything, because it is easy to criticize others, are typically vastly outnumbered by those who are fans of your works, the latter group usually simply isn't as vocal (someone once noted that only one of every ten fans speak up in any public forum).

(Reply to this)

[info]janni
2008-04-06 05:48 pm UTC (link)
No, no, no, you're a good furry copy of Le Guin.

(joking.) (you're a copy of no one but yourself.)

I figure readers have the right to take from work whatever they take from it. I don't know that they have the right to try to presume what the writer was thinking--only what they feel the writer said, which isn't the same thing--but I figure as a writer my job is to stay out of the way and let the conversation happen. :-)

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)
(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2008-04-06 06:03 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]haddayr
2008-04-06 05:52 pm UTC (link)
A misogynist self-hater, eh?

I've met you. You are clear-headed, self-loving, and intimately respectful of and clued-in to other women.

bah.

(Reply to this)

[info]beth_bernobich
2008-04-06 05:56 pm UTC (link)
Misogynist???? Ach du lieber Zeit—

Hearing things like that makes my brain hurt.

And convinces me (painfully, once again) that we cannot control what our readers think about us or our works.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)
(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2008-04-06 06:03 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]ninjahijinx
2008-04-06 05:56 pm UTC (link)
If it's the site I think you're talking about, they put my comic up on there, too, and killed my enthusiasm for the project, at the time. I don't think I ever really got my steam back for it... I guess I need a thicker skin.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)
(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2008-04-06 06:03 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]stokerbramwell, 2008-04-08 12:44 am UTC (Expand)

[info]ruggels
2008-04-06 06:00 pm UTC (link)
People willfind fault with anything especally if they are in a very fringey subculture, especially those quick t take offense.

http://users.livejournal.com/_allecto_/34718.html?page=1%23comments

and this is Firefly for goodness sakes.

It cpuld be worse, it could be for nameing a teddybear Mohamed after a student in class until the adults find out and take near letha offense.

Pay it no mind if they write from a fringe poitn of view, but do notice ifthey talk about structure, pacing wocabulary ect. that's more useful.

Scott

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)
(no subject) - [info]house_draven, 2008-04-06 08:52 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ruggels, 2008-04-06 09:00 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]house_draven, 2008-04-08 11:21 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]_eljefe_, 2008-04-07 04:47 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ruggels, 2008-04-08 03:13 am UTC (Expand)

[info]archangelbeth
2008-04-06 06:06 pm UTC (link)
Quite aside from [info]stokerbramwell's excellent rebuttal (which I suggest you keep handy in case you ever need it)... Falling into the "is that really my secret, hidden-from-self, self-destructive emotion?" pit is a bad, dangerous, thing.

It's the scam my sire pulled on me when he was trying to break me up from the guy I went on to marry and am still married to. (And the magnitude of that sin grows with every year of marriage. With every night that I go to sleep either snugged against my spouse or him snugged against me. With every "amo te" that we exchange. Grr.)

And it is poison. It is an attempt to twist you 'round till you eat your own tail and nothing is left. It not only insults and invalidates you, but it tries to send you into a state of confusion, witch-hunting your own emotions, your own thoughts, so much that you can't focus on the outside world, or trusting your own senses.

I've written, once, the hell of not being sure if anything one experiences is true. It's a wonderfully angsty, creepy little hell, but a hell it is. Don't let the bastiches put you in it. Seriously. That may be what they got out of it? But if you didn't put it there deliberately, it's something they put there, and that makes it their problem.

Find the place within yourself that can tell that witch-hunting thought, "Eff off," and move on. It's nothing but a diseased meme.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)
(no subject) - [info]bluedressdevil, 2008-04-06 06:33 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dulcinbradbury, 2008-04-06 09:12 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2008-04-06 10:34 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]miintikwa
2008-04-06 06:54 pm UTC (link)
Um.

This sort of thing makes my head hurt.

Psychologically speaking, I do believe this is mirroring-- seeing what is inside you through what is outside you.

Because seriously? They are not reading the same things I am, if that is what they get out of it. O.o

(Reply to this)

[info]laturner
2008-04-06 07:04 pm UTC (link)
This is something I fear whenever I think of posting my art or writing on the web... I know that *someone* will hate it, and I'll focus on their comments far more than on the positive.

When I was in high school I wrote a story that won a contest. One of the English teachers actually used it in a class, having students read it and analyze it. I was amazed at the symbolism and meaning they found in it that I'd certainly never intended to put there. I think that analysis says more about the reader than about the writer. :)

It is always far easier to destroy than to create, which is why there are so many critics. I agree with ruggels as well, I'd pay attention to a critique that might actually be accurate about the actual grammar or style, but a random comment about someone not liking your work in general can be explained as a difference in taste.

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[info]dragontdc
2008-04-06 07:25 pm UTC (link)
Non sino illigitimati abrado vos reductam.

Or something like that.

Of course you are a bad copy, because you are not a copy at all. I find much of your work transcendent.

Keep up the good work.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)
(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2008-04-06 10:34 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]dsgood
2008-04-06 07:57 pm UTC (link)
Many Americans think Animal Farm is a defense of capitalism.

You're in good company.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)
(no subject) - [info]archangelbeth, 2008-04-06 08:43 pm UTC (Expand)
Many Americans think Animal Farm is a defense of capitalism. - (Anonymous), 2008-04-07 02:15 am UTC (Expand)

[info]house_draven
2008-04-06 08:53 pm UTC (link)
There will always be people who want to pull you down. Don't let 'em. You know what you wrote, you know what you intended your writing to say,and if they're so obtuse that they can't get it, who needs 'em?

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)
(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2008-04-06 10:34 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]house_draven, 2008-04-08 11:21 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]branna
2008-04-06 09:02 pm UTC (link)
Wow. I...that is so far from what I got out of the Jokka stories that I'm just left sitting here with my mouth open.

It was "Freedom, Spiced and Drunk" that led me to your LJ in the first place. The problem presented, and the society that problem created, were genuinely compelling, and the character of Kediil fascinated me. I never thought that Jokkan biology was set up to excuse or justify the gender restrictions---rather, to me, their biology made the tragedy of those restrictions all the more real and acute. It was an interesting counterpoint to the usual dialogue in our society of whether or not women have to choose between career and family, power and femininity, in that the Jokka demonstrate what it is to _really_ have to choose.

But then, I know another writer who got email from two different people about the same novel: one accused her of promoting a gay lifestyle, the other accused her of being violently homophobic. I think this sort of thing has a lot more to do with the agenda and personal response of the reader than the intent (conscious or subconscious) of the author.

(Reply to this)(Thread)(Expand)
(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2008-04-06 10:33 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]branna, 2008-04-24 08:45 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2008-04-24 08:46 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ysabetwordsmith, 2008-04-07 09:07 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]eric_hinkle, 2008-08-05 07:41 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ysabetwordsmith, 2008-08-05 09:00 pm UTC (Expand)
<3 <3 <3
[info]thedigitalkuri
2008-04-06 09:04 pm UTC (link)
BWHA! *laughs*

When I read your fiction, I read it because of the incredible originality. Copy of Ursula? *BWHA* all over again. Ursula Le Guin was one of my favorite authors as a child, and the only comparison that I can draw is that both of you fabulous authors and women inspire in me a great sense of wonder and magic in reading your words.

Haters hate. That's what they do. Thus the existence of such cesspools as 4chan. Where beautiful imagery (sometimes) and complete idiocy (most of the time) collide.

(Reply to this)

[info]reality_hammer
2008-04-06 10:08 pm UTC (link)
People shouldn't make the mistake of associating characters with their writers. :P

In a story I'm currently working on one of the main antagonists is a female sociopath. That doesn't make me a misogynist any more than the fact that one of the principal protagonists is also a woman makes me a champion for women's rights. :P

That's just the way they are written.

(Reply to this)

[info]artfulruin
2008-04-06 10:40 pm UTC (link)
If only I were hated by more people the way you hate women and yourself....

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(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2008-04-06 11:55 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]sappersgt
2008-04-06 10:46 pm UTC (link)
I didn't particularly like LeGuin, but whatever. Lots of people do.

I honestly haven't read much of your longer works--but I like your short stories.

I adore your artwork.

And if you were trying to please everyone, including crazies who attempt to denounce people as "misogynists" based on an obviously biased and obsessive reading of a relatively small part of your corpus, you wouldn't be an artist anymore. You might be a candidate for elected office in the United States, but you wouldn't produce any art worth a damn.

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(Anonymous)
2008-04-07 02:12 am UTC (link)
Don't you just LOVE these amateur psychoanalyses of what you REALLY wrote and what you're REALLY like?

More like "Party Line" than "psychoanalysis" actually. What it usually boils down to is "You didn't kiss my ass, so you're full of Self-Hatred/Gender Issues/Racism/whatever. I'M NOT THE ONE WITH THE PROBLEM, YOU ARE!"

(Reply to this)
O_O
[info]ysabetwordsmith
2008-04-07 04:16 am UTC (link)
"Even better. Another woman full of self-hatred and with gender issues."

Wha ... aaat? Did this poster READ any of the stories?

Granted, Jokka biology is pretty dire for females (and not very kind to males) but the stories are mostly about anadi and sometimes others striving against that: insisting on being persons and influencing the course of their life, despite the vagaries of nature.

You're one of the top gender scholars I know.

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Re: O_O - [info]endlessland, 2008-04-07 04:25 am UTC (Expand)

[info]sleigh
2008-04-07 11:39 am UTC (link)
Hopefully you don't respond as I too often do to bad/factually incorrect/stupid reviews, and end up losing a few-to-several writing days brooding about them (whereas GOOD reviews give a few minutes of pleasure but otherwise have little effect. Why is that? Why do we give more heed to criticism than praise?)

Anyway... if you can, let it roll off you, gird up your self-belief, and keep writing!

(Reply to this)
The dramadary goes to bite them.
[info]dakiwiboid
2008-04-07 04:38 pm UTC (link)
I won't ride it, lest I become inflammatory and offensive myself. I'll just send the beastie, with its saddlebags full of dictionaries and cluebats.

(Reply to this)

[info]synnabar
2008-04-08 04:12 pm UTC (link)
I will join everyone else here in wondering how someone could come to such a conclusion. I think that person just never bothered to get to know you, or who you are. If they'd taken the time to read your journal here firsthand, for example, rather than winnow ideas about who you are from your writings (and possibly/probably inject their own biases etc. into their interpretation), they'd never come to that conclusion, IMO. It was their mistake, not a mistake made by you, or made in your writing.

(Reply to this)

[info]asakiyume
2008-04-09 09:26 pm UTC (link)
Wow. I am only just getting to know you and your stuff, but I LOVE your portrayal of women. So there.

(Reply to this)

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