M. C. A. Hogarth ([info]haikujaguar) wrote,
@ 2007-11-03 19:42:00
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Current mood:argh!
Entry tags:ai-naidar, language, meta-conversations

Translator Woes
"Why?" I ask, exasperated with myself. "Why did I do that?"

When the Calligrapher sits in his studio's windowseat, it's like looking at a puddle of sunshine: gold light, golden face, warm robes. But Shame's the one in it now, and with his high-contrast coloring and dark clothes he's brought shadows to a place I associated only with light. "Do what?"

"I use "male" and "female" sometimes," I say, setting the red pen down on the print-out. "Then I use "man" and "woman." I'm going to have to standardize on one."

"Which will you choose?" Shame asks, looking at me.

"Probably male and female," I say. "Man and woman... they imply something in our language that I don't think is... reasonable." Before he can ask, I explain, "Kherishdar doesn't do gender roles the way we do, and using "man" and "woman" will evoke that. "Male", "female"... those are biological terms and usually less loaded."

"Again with the pants," Shame guesses. "Why do your readers believe Farren less of a man because he wears robes? Most of us do."

"It's not about the pants," I say. "Maybe it's because to us, an intrinsic part of being a man involves... an aggressive-protective attitude. Almost at a genetic level."

"As if all of your men were Guardians?" Shame asks, the set of his ears indicating intrigue. "All your men can carry weapons?"

"In this country, anyway," I say. Only members of the Guardian caste can use weapons in Kherishdar. "But yes, typically."

"How curious," Shame says. "Is there so much wrong that every male must take up arms?"

"Well, no," I say, squirming. "Maybe I'm just not explaining it well."

"So Farren is feminine because he is not... aggressive?" Shame asks. He laughs. "You have not seen him after one suggests he paint something inappropriate. But come, am I more of a "man" than him?"

"You'll probably read that way since you're involved with discipline and justice," I say. "People will probably think your heart is harder." I lift my ink-stained hands. "No, no, don't ask me 'are all your men insensitive and cold.' I'm talking about perception, not reality."

"Very well," Shame says. "So your readers will think me more masculine because I Correct the faulty."

"And perhaps because you act, rather than think about acting," I say.

"Because painting wisdom to teach and reassure others isn't action," Shame says.

"Not... the kind people consider masculine, not often," I say. And sigh. Talking to him is always like this. I feel embarrassed by my own assumptions even as he traps me with them. "It's hard to escape biology, Shame. We may rise above it, but somewhere in our gut it's still churning away, and our great passion plays often reduce to us fighting out genetic imperatives... or trying not to. That's part of being human, I think."

"I see," Shame says, and I go back to editing to keep from meeting his too-pale eyes. He lets it go and I work in silence while he stares out the window. My shoulders relax. The pen scratches. man woman woman man

"Of course," Shame says incidentally, "the reason you kept choosing multiple words has nothing to do with your conflictedness about rendering our gender roles to aunera. It's because you failed to realize we have different language markers for 'person or thing outside our periphery/in the background' and 'person or thing we are currently interacting with.' Your use of male and female probably has more to do with your attempt to make sense of the emotional distance implied by those markers."

I gape at him. That's the only reason I see his amusement before he veils it.

"Curse it all!" I say and throw up my hands. "Now what do I do?"

Naturally, he doesn't feel the need to answer that one.


Stardancer Home.



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[info]chlorophyta
2007-11-04 12:41 am UTC (link)
Leave it the way you wrote it. It makes sense, and it's a subtle thing that most will not even notice. If they do, and go looking for an explanation, there is one.

Shame is fascinating.

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[info]captainq
2007-11-04 12:42 am UTC (link)
He does speak like a prison officer, doesn't he?

Perhaps...perhaps as an executioner. I would hope his work does not keep him very busy.

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[info]haikujaguar
2007-11-04 04:03 am UTC (link)
Execution is... so rare I'm not sure I've ever seen it happen.

This is to say, our style of execution, which involves someone being killed against their will. Criminals can choose to die rather than be Corrected or caste-shifted, and then they're executed.

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[info]captainq
2007-11-04 04:14 am UTC (link)
After I posted this, I thought about it, and I apologize. I did not mean to impose such a grim question upon you.

Even so, Shame strikes me as such that have performed this duty. Perhaps not many times, but he seems to have.

I would imagine almost anyone would choose to live, but most would not choose to change.

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[info]haikujaguar
2007-11-04 04:23 am UTC (link)
Well, grim questions are the kinds that Shame deals with, really. If the Calligrapher is what is gentle and good about Kherishdar, than Shame is what is hard and good about it.

I am not precisely looking forward to uncovering more of his work history, but I admit to being curious.

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[info]ysabetwordsmith
2007-11-04 04:02 pm UTC (link)
This actually makes me much more comfortable with the Ai-Naidari legal system. That's a good back door to have, and it's good that they have the choice.

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[info]artfulruin
2007-11-04 12:48 am UTC (link)
Ahhhhhh.... so lovely. I love it! *glee*

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[info]sappersgt
2007-11-04 12:56 am UTC (link)
I freakin' adore Shame. He's my kind of alien.

And yes, to answer him. For us, all males are Guardians. Or at least, all males who aren't crippled physically or emotionally. It's a biological imperative. The fact that the Kerishdar associate physical protective violence with a single caste rather than an obligation of everyone who isn't a serf tells me just how long their culture has been largely united, peaceful, and free of serious political strife. Never mind having to defend your young from wolves or lions.

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[info]dsgood
2007-11-04 03:13 am UTC (link)
Not completely true. There are religious pacifists, to begin with -- in societies as different as the US and India. And in the traditional Jewish culture of Eastern Europe, men weren't supposed to be Guardians; they were supposed to be religious scholars, if they could.

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[info]sappersgt
2007-11-04 07:57 am UTC (link)
Jews in Eastern Europe, for centuries, were not permitted to participate in defense of society, or even their own homes and lives.

They weren't fully free in the same sense that someone else who was not a Jew would be.

At any rate, while there are a handful of religious pacifists, at least in Western culture this is a relatively recent development and exceedingly rare outside of monastic communities.

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[info]sappersgt
2007-11-04 07:59 am UTC (link)
Oh, and many 'religious pacifists' are simply emotionally crippled. They make a virtue of necessity. I've met a kid who filed as a CO after coming back from Iraq. He was as much a casualty as if he had been blown up.

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[info]haikujaguar
2007-11-04 04:00 am UTC (link)
It's a stable place and has been for thousands of years. And they've held their empire's planets against aliens for all of them. The gate system inspired an interesting cultural development; fairly early on, they discovered walking through one landed you in a place with slightly different stars. What would we be like if we knew there were other worlds, do you think?

I can't help but think this is a large part of why they are what they are.

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[info]sappersgt
2007-11-04 01:02 am UTC (link)
Oh, and for the record?

I never perceived any of your aliens who wear robes/caftans/skirts as feminine unless you meant them to be.

Case in Point would be the first picture of yours that I bought. . .

http://www.stardancer.org/send-format.phtml/pics/archive/freehandsilentchain4.jpg

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[info]smokierings
2007-11-04 02:11 am UTC (link)
I love how he 'feels'. It's awkward, and makes that little belly-spot twist, but it's familiar and somehow comforting for me.
I think I'm kind of strange.

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[info]cissa
2007-11-04 02:21 am UTC (link)
Hee! Oh, yes.

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[info]miintikwa
2007-11-04 02:56 am UTC (link)
*giggle*

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[info]dsgood
2007-11-04 03:19 am UTC (link)
Note that it's possible in English to talk about someone without indicating whether the person is male, female, or one of several other gender classifications. For example, instead of "he" or "she" you can say "they" or "that person." (I've heard "that person" mostly from people in various 12 step subcultures; but I've also heard it over the phone from a police officer in Ontario.)

Other classifications include: Man living as woman. Male to female transgender. Neutered man living as man. Neutered man living as woman. Woman living as man. Female to male transgender. Intersexual.

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[info]haikujaguar
2007-11-04 03:59 am UTC (link)
Well, I could use "they" but that's technically incorrect when speaking of a single person, and in the text I bet it would cause readers to do a double-take--they'd expect more than one person. "That person" is awkward, but translations often are... it's an interesting point. :)

I have not identified any "Gender living as other Gender" people yet. Possibly because the major traditional gender roles in our culture are handled by both sexes. Men take care of families. Women can become Guardians and heads of household. If I did look, I bet the equivalent would be people trying to live as different castes... a huge social taboo and likely to get you Corrected (or moved).

Transgender... I haven't noticed either. But I haven't looked. This culture seems less about gender and more about caste.

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[info]leiacat
2007-11-05 08:15 pm UTC (link)
But being transgender is not about discomfort with the gender roles. It's far more fundamental than that - it's about discomfort with one's own body, and an acute feeling that it should have been different in a very profound way.

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[info]dulcinbradbury
2007-11-04 06:41 pm UTC (link)
Also "Genderqueer" & some trannys distinguish down to the pre/post hormones or surgery. :)

Also... in the middle ages there were more than two sexes, but, I'd have to do some digging on that one. I think it was at least 3 & possibly 5.

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[info]haikujaguar
2007-11-04 09:15 pm UTC (link)
??? More please? I've never heard this.

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[info]hyanan
2007-11-04 03:38 am UTC (link)
LOL Pants!

Naturally, we become less concerned about labeling those with whom we are emotionally close.

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[info]haikujaguar
2007-11-04 03:59 am UTC (link)
Sooth. :)

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[info]poliphilo
2007-11-04 12:07 pm UTC (link)
Wonderful.

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On translation
[info]ysabetwordsmith
2007-11-04 04:05 pm UTC (link)
If you want the opinion of another xenolinguist, I'd say check your patterning. If you're translating consistently across the grammars, then leave it stand; we can deal with man/woman, male/female. If it's random, standardize the usage.

As for gender roles ... well, that's part of what makes us alien to the Ai-Naidar, and the strangeness of their culture is what makes them valuable to us.

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[info]martes
2007-11-04 07:51 pm UTC (link)
Probably too late for my 2 cents, but to me man & woman = human. Like cow and bull, queen and drone or dog and bitch. Man and woman are terms to refer to a human male and female. If you use them in stories with characters who are supposed to be alien, people will still make the human connection. If male and female are too clinical, then make up appropriate terms. The stories have so many alien words what's two more?

I certainly don't use "man and woman" to refer to male and female griffins in my book (how rediculous would that sound?)I just used male and female, along with 4 life stage identifiers--chick, juvenile, subadult and adult.

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[info]ysabetwordsmith
2007-11-04 08:23 pm UTC (link)
Huh ... that reminds me, my centaur characters do something funny with this. When speaking outside their own language, they will interchange mare/woman and man/stallion, so it's equally correct to say "a centaur woman" and "a centaur mare." But the pattern is that they tend to use the *opposite* term that a human or other native speaker of the target language would choose in the same situation. It's a deliberate means to startle people and remind them that centaurs have some important differences.

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[info]martes
2007-11-05 04:02 am UTC (link)
Donna Barr used mare and stallion for the half-horses in her Stinz books.

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[info]ysabetwordsmith
2007-11-05 11:07 pm UTC (link)
I remember that! It was a fun series.

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[info]haikujaguar
2007-11-04 09:16 pm UTC (link)
Hmm. For me it seems to be... animal versus sentient, as a distinction. Which means sentients shaped like animals mess up my sense of it. :)

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[info]lotos_rose
2007-11-04 11:44 pm UTC (link)
Would it make sense to use the Kerishdar words for the genders rather than aunerai ones? It would separate us (readers) from some of our assumptions, I think.

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[info]haikujaguar
2007-11-05 12:41 am UTC (link)
It might, but... in my experience, people seriously trip over texts where gender pronouns/nouns are unusual or reassigned... Hmm.

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[info]anamacha
2007-11-05 01:08 am UTC (link)
this makes part of my brain hurt. In a good way.

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[info]perusetheshade
2007-11-05 03:48 am UTC (link)
*laughs* I wish that all of the males in America carried weapons.

It's a shame it's illegal.

(Sorry, I recently watched Shaun of the Dead and Hot Fuzz, and the British naivete and outright ignorance about firearms angers me, even when they're poking fun at it themselves. And I see America heading in the same direction.)

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