M. C. A. Hogarth ([info]haikujaguar) wrote,
@ 2007-03-22 09:23:00
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Current mood:growly
Entry tags:controversy, culture

Geeks in the Basement
This rant behind a cut in deference to my underage readers. If you're underage, continue only if you're willing to learn that abstinence isn't going to kill you dead.


I'm sure by now you've heard at least one person say, "hey, geek, get out of your mother's basement and get laid," and its many variants (get a real girlfriend, touch an actual woman, etc, etc). This has bothered me for a while. I have no argument with advising people to experience life more fully... what strikes me as ugly is the assumption that having sex is equivalent to developing an intimate, human relationship. Yet again, people are conflating sex with intimacy.

Haven't we been down this road before?

I guess not. Here's news, then: sex doesn't necessarily have anything to do with love. I've had friendships more intimate than some people's sexual relationships. And if there isn't already love, trust and commitment in a relationship, it's not going to magically bring those things to the table. Don't misinterpret me: sex can add genuine intimacy to a relationship. But it can also be a complete emotional null, a perfunctory act... and it can also be shattering, an emotional and personal land mine, destructive and abusive.

More and more when I look at the popular culture advanced by the media, I see casual sexual activity billed as the norm. It used to be that going solo would make you blind...nowadays the media seems determined to convince you that abstinence is the real killer. If you haven't had sex lately (or at all), you're a sub-human freak who couldn't get any if you tried. Because, you know, it's better to have bad or meaningless sex than no sex at all.

Um, no.

So, for the record:

If you haven't had sex yet, you're not sub-human. No one should be pitying you or condescending to you.

If you haven't had sex lately, you're not going to die from some stress-induced aneurism, and anyone who makes you feel that way should be publically shamed.

If you've chosen not to have sex for some reason, you are a freaking counter-cultural revolutionary. Last time I checked, that gives you the right to wear the 'I'm cooler than all you people who are swimming with the current' badge.

I like to write a lot of abstinent characters. It didn't occur to me until recently that these characters were radicals. When did that happen? Well, whenever it happened, I'm arguing with it. You can have intimate and enriching human relationships without sex. There's absolutely nothing wrong with not being sexually active. It's not going to make or break you as a human being, unless you let everyone around you convince you otherwise. So if those people start getting to you, just come hang out with me, okay?



There you go. I'm done now. I think.

Stardancer Home.



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[info]stokerbramwell
2007-03-22 02:03 pm UTC (link)
If you've chosen not to have sex for some reason, you are a freaking counter-cultural revolutionary. Last time I checked, that gives you the right to wear the 'I'm cooler than all you people who are swimming with the current' badge.

YAY, I'M COOL!

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(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2007-03-22 02:05 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]stokerbramwell, 2007-03-22 02:25 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]razzek, 2007-03-22 05:27 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]stokerbramwell, 2007-03-23 06:29 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]eric_hinkle, 2008-04-24 02:59 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]dracosphynx
2007-03-22 02:13 pm UTC (link)
Yes, I do find the attitude that people *need* to have sex so very tiring.

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[info]hookncrook
2007-03-22 02:14 pm UTC (link)
You make a great point. I think that is why so many male/female friendships end up with the friends having sex...our culture misinterprets intimacy for having to be equivilent with sexual intimacy. They assume sex leads to a closer relationship--or buy the bull that if they are friends--well why not be closer.

In my life, I am more intimate with my female friends than even my X-husband. We have this female bond, and though we hug, hold hands, and even cry with each other-- I realize that the intimacy isn't sexual in nature--and doesn't have to be.

Plus I think comments like you are complaining abotu have more to do with anti-social behavior or being introverted than true intimacy. I had problems relating to people or being able to participate in small talk--it kept me soically isolated for years. But after a friend helped me learn to mingle and reading a bunch of books on 'safe conversational subjects' I have lots of friends...

Sex never has alliveated the lack of friendship or intimacy...in fact it seems to complicate the situation more.

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[info]haddayr
2007-03-22 02:17 pm UTC (link)
Actually, I don't think this is supposed to be advising people to develop intimate, human relationships.

I think this line intimates that geeks aren't real men. Real men "get laid," which as you have explained doesn't have to have anything to do with intimate relationships. Real men "score."

Geeks? Geeks who have genuine friendships and devoutly follow their interests obsessively? Geeks? The Other? The ones who don't care to fit in or couldn't even if they tried? Not Real Men.

I think that's what that line is really saying.

And I'm always glad when someone uses it, because I can cross them off my "potential friends" list right away without having to waste any more time on them.

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[info]grntserendipity
2007-03-22 02:26 pm UTC (link)
I agree exactly. I was insulted all through college for it too, by friends of friends. But I'm happy with my choices.

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[info]nambroth
2007-03-22 02:29 pm UTC (link)
Thank you!! :D

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[info]phaedra_lari
2007-03-22 02:31 pm UTC (link)
I generally agree with you, but I have definitely have encountered some people online who clearly have held them back from f2f social interaction and experience. While I would never urge them to get laid, I have occasionally wished I could tell them in a way that they'd hear to more or less get a life. I think online community is wonderful, and in no way inferior to other types of interaction, but experience in the flesh-world is important too. I think some people avoid that as much as possible out of fear, leaving them rather ingnorant about a huge swathe of reality. Sometimes I think that sort of "get laid" comment may be said to people who might be better off getting more experience with fully living their lives in the world.

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(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2007-03-22 03:00 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]phaedra_lari, 2007-03-23 02:39 am UTC (Expand)

[info]archangelbeth
2007-03-22 02:52 pm UTC (link)
And here's another one: if you haven't had sex yet, that doesn't mean that you are OMG GOING TO BE A NUN/LUSR 4EVAR and NEVAR marry OMG!!!111!.

Sometimes the over-30 never-slept-with-a-girl guy gets the hawt, nubile teenager. And she gets to gloat about how she was the one who caught him.


**BETH GLOATS**

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(no subject) - [info]dulcinbradbury, 2007-03-22 02:57 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]archangelbeth, 2007-03-22 03:22 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dulcinbradbury, 2007-03-22 03:26 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]archangelbeth, 2007-03-22 03:31 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dulcinbradbury, 2007-03-22 03:48 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]archangelbeth, 2007-03-22 04:30 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dulcinbradbury, 2007-03-22 06:15 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]archangelbeth, 2007-03-22 06:43 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dulcinbradbury, 2007-03-22 06:44 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]archangelbeth, 2007-03-22 07:53 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dulcinbradbury, 2007-03-22 07:54 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]archangelbeth, 2007-03-22 09:10 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dulcinbradbury, 2007-03-23 12:30 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2007-03-22 03:01 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]archangelbeth, 2007-03-22 03:25 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]dulcinbradbury
2007-03-22 02:56 pm UTC (link)
I've *one* friend who falls into this catagory. I'd *like* to see him get a girlfriend. I'd *settle* for him getting laid.

Why?

Because then *he* might get over thinking that, just because he doesn't have a girlfriend & hasn't been laid in a LONG time, he's not an untouchable freak. It might give him the confidence that would help him FIND a girlfriend.

He's a generally good guy with the bad habit of being so understated as to be easily overlooked. He's quiet. He rarely takes credit for anything. He's rarely assertive in any way.

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[info]amarafox
2007-03-22 03:01 pm UTC (link)
I haven't had sex in long long long time. Partly by choice, partly because I haven't felt like it, partly because most sex acts make me squirmy. I once had someone get all uppity 'What do you mean you won't do X? Good luck finding a boyfriend' Those people get my F--- you very much, response ;)

I AM SPECIAL :D

*hugs*

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(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2007-03-22 03:17 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]jordan179, 2007-03-22 05:44 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]ysabel
2007-03-22 03:12 pm UTC (link)
I have said, "You need to get laid," before, but never in this context. When I've said it, it's a shorted version of "Good gods, you are tense, you need to relax! Do something, anything, that will loosen those knots in your muscles and your brain before you explode from the tension!"

Then again, I think every time I've used that phrase, it's been to someone who would understand that meaning.

I also agree with [info]haddayr, because I've seen it used exactly like that before. And I've never seen it used to mean something like "you should experience more of life/have intimate relationships".

IMHO the best way to say that to Internet geeks, at least, is "You should go spend some time in the Big Blue Room. The Giant Yellow Orb won't hurt you." If they aren't capable of the humor inherent in the Big Blue Room, then it's probably best to just leave them alone entirely.

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(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2007-03-22 03:16 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]_eljefe_, 2007-03-24 04:32 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]stryck, 2007-03-22 04:47 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]archangelbeth, 2007-03-22 05:21 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]razzek, 2007-03-22 05:29 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]catamount3, 2007-03-22 09:26 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]kulhain
2007-03-22 04:12 pm UTC (link)
I agree. I have seen a lot of people get into a lot of bad situations that could have otherwise been avoided with a little restraint.

In other news, check out this brownie pan I just found. :D~

http://www.bakersedge.com/

--
Lost Dragon

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(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2007-03-22 04:17 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]puffbird, 2007-03-22 04:31 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kengara, 2007-03-23 12:11 am UTC (Expand)

[info]thedigitalkuri
2007-03-22 04:35 pm UTC (link)
But lovely lady, I'm going to be 22 this year and I've never had a boyfriend or a girlfriend and gone all the way with them, and I do not have any religious beliefs. So of course that means I'm dysfunctional! [ /snark]

The media out there is ugly. But I think a lot of it is how you allow it to influence you. When I was growing up, my parents said 'child, we would prefer that you not have sex until you are 16. But if you decide you must, please come to us, ask us questions and get birth control'. I still contend that my parents had the right idea.

Personally, being a quarter of my life over and never having had sex, I feel amused. Because I'm the last man standing out of my peer group, other than those who are following religious beliefs (and are getting married soon, YAY! <3 ) It is lonely sometimes not having an intimate partner to get physical with.. but I think that you hit the nail on the head when you said the key word 'INTIMATE'. Getting naked and sweaty is not going to produce a friendship or a relationsship. And I have had some incredibly fulfilling relationships over time.

So.. on my end of things, I just don't mention anything. People tend to leave me alone, I have the kind of friends who are kind and don't make fun of people for their choices. XD

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[info]miintikwa
2007-03-22 04:37 pm UTC (link)
♥ you.

I have a character in my book who is asexual.

Not gay, not gender neutered, asexual. He doesn't want sex. He's not into it. He's not horny, he's not repressed, he just would rather be friends with another character and be intimately inside their head than inside their pants.

I've had several people tell me this character isn't realistic.

I vehemently disagree- but I'm actually considering taking him out of the book because so many people just don't get him.

I'm glad that you, at least, would.

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(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2007-03-22 05:43 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-04-24 04:16 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lady_ravenlocke, 2007-03-22 05:48 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dulcinbradbury, 2007-03-22 06:22 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]tremaine, 2007-03-23 01:02 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]silversliver, 2008-04-25 03:42 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]miintikwa, 2008-04-25 03:46 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]oldewolfe
2007-03-22 04:57 pm UTC (link)
Full agreement here. For me, sex *requires* a committed relationship.

The sad thing is when one *chooses* to have the isolated geek lifestyle when presented with a committed, loving relationship. They would rather live the fantasy life in their computer instead of real human contact.

*sigh*

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[info]puffbird
2007-03-22 05:04 pm UTC (link)
I'm with you. I find it disturbing that **choosing** abstinence is considered freakish anymore. D: It's as though breaking through those cultural restrictions has made it okay for them to turn the tables and persecute those who don't follow societal norms. (Plus the whole self-image problem when teens are told, whether directly or implied, that if they've never had sex, there must be something wrong with them. THAT IS JUST NOT TRUE.)

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[info]razzek
2007-03-22 05:21 pm UTC (link)
Wow. I'd never thought of it like that before. Thank you!

Being abstinent myself, I know it's not easy (especially in today's culture), so I applaud everyone who's in the same boat with me. It's something to be proud of and it's not something everyone can do. Certain members of my family, to my surprise, expressed real pride in me for not going down the paths they took. I was honestly amazed that anyone would think such a thing. It's kind of cool to know. :)

The number of abstinent characters you have is part of what drew me to your writing from the start. Every time you do portray a sexual relationship, good or bad, you tell it like it is and you do provide consequences. To date, you're the only author dealing with sex that doesn't treat it casually or like it's the end all of love, and that's really a wonderful and great thing.

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(no subject) - [info]haikujaguar, 2007-03-22 05:47 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]indigo_alamaris
2007-03-22 05:37 pm UTC (link)
Totally, utterly agreed. It still boggles my mind that so many people today think its bizzare to choose abstinance...I think the thing the irks me the most about it is that women who sleep around are called "whores/skanks/loose" and men who sleep around are called "players/real men". Not only that, but the pressure is reaching younger and younger people; I remember when I was 14, sitting in the hall with a group of friends, and girls younger than me bragging about how many guys they'd slept with and who they'd lost their virginity to.

If you've chosen not to have sex for some reason, you are a freaking counter-cultural revolutionary. Last time I checked, that gives you the right to wear the 'I'm cooler than all you people who are swimming with the current' badge.

Yay! I'm cool! :D *puts on badge* There really should be such a badge...something like "I <3 MY MORALS" in block letters.

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[info]gryphart
2007-03-22 05:58 pm UTC (link)
Well, I think there tend to be two opposing cultural forces, actually; "have meaningless sex" and "sex is eeeeevil" seem to both get a great deal of airtime. I primarily see the meaningless sex pushed by marketing firms and the like, while a large group of policy-makers and religious figures seem utterly determined to push the latter.

Personally, I think both points of view are equally disturbing. Trivializing an intimate act isn't healthy, but regarding a natural impulse as something morally wrong can also damage people.

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The Wiggly Line...
[info]traveller_blues
2007-03-22 06:13 pm UTC (link)
Good words to think about, arii. And I agree.

There's a long road or a short road to get to someone else's bed, but the path to get to your own always remains the same.

It's okay to wake up with yourself; your interactions are your choice and your affections a gift to give away, but best gifted when you know you're going to receive something of equal value in return.

This is easiest to get from friends, who aren't usually asking for anything more than the simple favors, the moments of -shared- experiences (there's a subtle difference between experience and interaction) -- and not unlike a good romance, some shared experiences can be powerfully intimate in their environments and memories, rather than the activities involved.

A good story is about tension, challenges, and growth. About change. About life. And about creating the ability to care about the hero or heroine, same as we do with our friends.

The story presented by the media isn't a novel. It's a 'how can we fit something into 40 minutes broken down into four acts, and sometimes 24 minutes broken down into three acts?' So not surprisingly, it skips to the sex.

Real relationships are about developing something that will last longer than a seven year series.

And one final thought: How many novels start with the hero or heroine breaking up with their significant other in the middle of the book?

Tragedies do.

Adventures tend not to.

I want my life to be an adventure, not a tragedy.


-Traveller

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Re: The Wiggly Line... - [info]kengara, 2007-03-23 12:18 am UTC (Expand)

[info]wolfbrotherjoe
2007-03-22 08:10 pm UTC (link)
I have never considered myself a counter-cultural revolutionary before...

I agree with you on all points.

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[info]kistaro
2007-03-22 08:27 pm UTC (link)
I find this interesting, because my perspective seems to be some odd sort of in-between I didn't really think about much. Well, except when many of my classmates harping on how inferior I must be for not getting drunk partying (or, for that matter, attending parties) and not getting laid. Sure, my libido and I wouldn't mind (despite all the spiritual identity in the world, I am still physically a twenty-year-old male), but the "cheap sex" concept of going out partying and "hooking up" is not a comfortable one to me.

I do think it's okay for friends to get sexual with each other. Just as sex is not an integral part of life to the extent that there's something wrong with a person for not getting any, it's not so incredibly sacred that it can only be considered under extraordinarily limited circumstances. Either extreme leads to unhealthy obsession with the concept. And note how polarized our society tends to be! Either "there's something wrong with you if you think sex has any meaning at all" (which is certainly not my position; sex, when done correctly, is a deep and intimate thing, just not the only or the only important form of intimacy!), or "sex is wrong unless you're married and only then in one position with the lights off". Or even just the first fragment of that sentence. Those seem to be the two prevailing mindsets in American culture at the moment, and considering sex to be just another aspect of life and society, with having it or not having it being perfectly reasonable healthy variations, seems to be almost nonexistent.

It is partially a religious thing for me. I'm Pagan, and to me sexuality is a pseudo-sacred thing of people sharing of themselves with each other. This isn't, I suppose, what most people think of as a religious attitude towards sex; nothing in it suggests that sex is in some way a bad thing or only for procreation! It is not meaningless, but the meaning it has is neither "sinful" nor locked-down to some one particular person.

And it's also inspired by my Psychology classes, which have pointed out its apparent importance in pair-bonding by observing aboriginal societies, modern societies, and several other species of primates. I guess it's sort of the logical, secular extension of my religious beliefs. A lot of my religious beliefs are like that- very heavily influenced by the science I've studied, and the more I study of each, the more harmony I find, not conflict.

But... yeah. Thanks for saying this, because especially in the springtime, it frustrates me how much people obsess about sex and whether or not other people are having it.

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(no subject) - [info]tabard, 2007-03-22 09:11 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]kistaro, 2007-03-23 01:04 am UTC (Expand)

[info]okojosan
2007-03-22 09:12 pm UTC (link)
Substitute "Getting drunk" for "having sex" and you'll understand how I feel. Sometimes I feel like such a freak because I don't drink alcohol, have never been drunk, and don't want to be around people who are drunk.

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(no subject) - [info]kistaro, 2007-03-23 12:58 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]synnabar, 2007-03-31 12:24 am UTC (Expand)
I've concluded there are more sexual orientations than "gay-straight-bi."
[info]jorrocks_j
2007-03-23 12:57 am UTC (link)
Some people like a lot of sex. Some don't like it at all. Most are in between.

Some people can't imagine being monogamous. Some can't imagine being any other way. Most fall somewhere in between (though they'll never admit it).

But popular culture does seem to represent sex as the end-all and be-all of existence. It isn't, of course. But then why should anyone be surprised that popular culture gets it wrong?

I enjoy sex a lot. I've had a fair amount, and regretted some of it (good sex in a bad marriage is about the most regrettable thing of all). But there are other things in life. Love is one. And love, with or without sex, is always worth the effort.

--Skarl the Drummer

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MMmmmm
[info]atlquotl
2007-03-23 03:43 am UTC (link)
A friend of mine showed me this page, and I have to agree with most everything said. First my moral beliefs tend to lead me to be inclined to avoid sex unless under cirtain circumstances. Second, I ignored those morals once, and I will never do so again. (Ignoring them led to a 4 year relationship with a woman who I cared deeply for, but was not compatible with, wound up with 2 children, and a lot of pain for it.)
To think I was proud of myself for not having had sex by the time I was 20... heh. Anyway I've recently had some co-workers find out how long it's been since I've last "Been laid" (such a crude way to put it, isn't it?) And these kids got it in their heads that they have to find someone for me, and they pity me, but at the same time think it's hysterically funny. Hmmmm One of them is in a physical relationship with some girl He "really cares about and will get back with some day," but they've both decided to see other people for now at the same time. Another one just broke up with her boyfriend, but well apparently "You just don't get over feelings like that over night" So she's still sleeping with him, and a third..... He comes into work stoned all the time, so no one's really sure when his last real relationship has been. Yet they all chose to think that I'm inferior because I don't choose to get physical in a relationship I know will just ultimately cause me more pain and heartache. I'm an oddball, I've an enormous sex drive, but I'm also very very inclined to be completely monogomous.... (and that's not just because of my morals.... I tend to be very loyal, and the idea of sleeping with more than one, even if it's after the last relationship ended, bothers me, a lot.)
To those of you who think that sex is just something to do, you're missing out on something else alltogether. To those of you who choose to wait, trust me, it's worth the wait, especially if it ultimately leads to a monogomous relationship. There's an innocent intimacy that's there, that's absolutely indescribable, once lost, it's impossible to get back, and you'll miss it forever. I know, I had it once, and lost it through a series of actions I will forever regret. Someone else may be a "Better lay." but the innocence lost means the grass will never be greener on the other side.
Atl

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